Messaging Before Marketing: What 20 Years in Business Taught Jennifer Kok

Jennifer Kok signed the paperwork on her first business two days before her second daughter was born. Twenty years, one recession, and a profitable sale later, she's here to talk about what actually gets you through the messy middle of building something real. This one is raw, it's honest, and if you've ever felt like burnout snuck up on you slowly, you need this conversation.

This week I'm joined by Jennifer Kok, a 25+ year entrepreneur who built a national bakery franchise from the ground up while raising three kids, weathered a recession, and sold the business for a profit before becoming a coach for women entrepreneurs. We talk about the early days of doing it all, the moment burnout stopped being a buzzword and became her reality, and why messaging before marketing changed everything for one of her clients. If you've ever felt like you're saying yes to too many things and not sure how to stop, this episode gives you permission to narrow in.

What you'll learn:

- Why burnout shows up in small cracks long before it becomes a full crumble

- The difference between revenue and real profit, and why chasing the wrong one keeps you stuck

- Why "messaging before marketing" matters more than any platform or tactic

- How one photographer quadrupled her revenue by getting specific about who she serves

- Why niching down doesn't mean excluding people, it means being found by the right ones

- The "pass the face test" for knowing if your messaging is actually working

- Why pivoting too soon on your messaging can undo progress that just needed more time

- How Jennifer's own business and family taught her that asking for help isn't a weakness

Connect with Jennifer: 

WEBSITE: https://nextwavebusinesscoaching.com/

Masterclass for Women: https://nextwavebusinesscoaching.com/masterclass

PODCAST: https://nextwavebusinesscoaching.com/main-street-success-stories/

INSTAGRAM: @nextwavewithjen

LINKEDIN: http://www.linkedin.com/in/jenniferowenskok

FACEBOOK: https://www.facebook.com/nextwavewithjen

Join the next Marketing Mixer, a virtual networking event for mom founders. 

Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode, and follow along over on Instagram!
@ruthie.sterrett
@theconsistencycorner

Transcript

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Ruthie (00:00)
Welcome back to the Consistency Corner Podcast. And if you're new here, welcome for the first time. This little corner of the internet, we really like to have conversations with female founders who are willing to be transparent, keep it real, talk about the ups and downs of being a mom, being a founder, juggling all of the things. And I'm excited for the conversation with our guest today, Jennifer Coke, because she gets that when business needs all of you, your kids need all of you, and it's feeling like, gosh, it maybe it could have gotten it.

Easier by now. She gets that. She's lived through it and is on the other side to be able to reflect and look back and support you through that journey. Her first business actually started two days before she gave birth to her second daughter. And she built it for 20 years while raising her family through a recession and was able to come out on the other side with a profitable sale. And now she coaches women going through the same climb.

So this is really a long view that we're gonna talk about today. And you know I'm all about highlighting the real and not just the highlight reel. So that's the conversation that we are gonna have. And I'm so thankful to have you here. Jennifer, welcome.

Jennifer Kok (01:10)
Thank you. I'm so excited that we get to talk about what's real when it comes to building a business.

Ruthie (01:14)
Yes, yes. So your official bio, which I'll share first and then we're gonna get into the nitty-gritty and the story maybe between the lines, but you have more than 25 years of entrepreneurial experience. You started your first business, like I said, two days before your second child was born. And you grew it in the middle of a recession and turned it into a national brand before selling for a profit. And today you're coaching women, entrepreneurs who are building businesses and families at the same time, helping them to get real profit.

And pay themselves consistently. And you're a podcast host, a speaker, and you're also, you know, when you're not working, a real person like all of us, and enjoy time on the lake with your adult kids, babysitting the grandbabies, and walking your golden retrievers. So that's the official bio, and I love that. But tell me about that moment.

Two days before your daughter was born and you're signing paperwork for your first business. What what happened there?

Jennifer Kok (02:15)
Yeah, something I wouldn't recommend, let's put it that way. You know, I started my career in corporate America and I loved my job, but after I had my first child, back then, in order for me to move up the corporate ladder, we had to keep relocating. So my husband and I had moved three times in six years. Our oldest daughter's three years old, and we're just looking at each other like, is this what we want? You know, it's feeling a little bit like a hamster wheel.

We're pulled in a lot of directions. And do we want to keep relocating? So I made the decision to leave my corporate job and start a business. And I started a franchise called Cookies by Design. They were these cookie gifts that we would deliver and we moved back to Michigan to be close to family. And I had no idea what I was doing, like a lot of us when we start a business. We've got a passion, a purpose, an idea, and we just go for it, right? We jump in. And I'm one of those people that, yes.

Ruthie (03:07)
Like, I'm gonna figure it out. You were a figure

it outer.

Jennifer Kok (03:10)
I'm a figure it out or like we're gonna fly the plane and we're gonna learn how to fly as we go. Well, I just in my head thought, okay, well, this'll all be done a little sooner. I didn't know about building permits and plumbing and grease traps and all the things that went into a bakery. And so literally by the time we opened our doors, I still had about three weeks to go until my second daughter was born. But she arrived early, probably because I was pretty stressed out. And

We opened our doors. Two days later, I find myself in labor. My husband comes and picks me up from the hospital with cookie bouquets in the back of the car that we had to deliver on our way home. And then I got up the next day and took my newborn into work with me. I had two employees and I just felt like I had to prove something. And I also felt the pressure. And, you know, also I had loans, let's be real. Right. I this was it took a little bit of a venture to build a bakery. So off to work I went.

Ruthie (04:04)
Yeah, yeah, that's that's a lot to kick off the business journey. And I'm sure over the course of 20 years you had many, many moments like that. Moments of pressure, moments of overwhelm, moments of stress. As you look back and reflect back, talk to me a little bit about burnout. And maybe if you could talk to yourself back then, what would you tell her about burnout?

Jennifer Kok (04:26)
Well, first of all, you know, burnout's this word that we throw around, right? It it can also sometimes feel like a buzzword. So a lot of us don't really take it seriously for what it is. And

Ruthie (04:35)
Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Kok (04:35)
burnout comes in a lot of levels. I think we hear the word burnout and we think, I can't get off the floor, I can't keep going. But it it can show up slowly and subtly as we are building anything. And the reality of building a business, just like when you're building anything real, your family, it there's ups and there's downs.

And you know, I was 13 weeks into the journey of my new business with this newborn, didn't get a maternity leave, and I had that moment on the floor. I literally came home, we were living with my in-laws, and I was just like, I can't keep going. I cannot put one foot in front of the other anymore. I'm exhausted. This is ridiculous. What have I done? You know, so we start to get that mental spiral going where we doubt ourselves, we we second guess our decisions.

And the only place I could find that had a little bit of privacy was the bathroom floor of my in-laws' house. I locked the doors and curled up on the floor. And back then it had purple carpeting. That was back when people thought putting carpeting in the bathroom was kind of a cool feature. And I just cried and cried and cried. And I think I passed out crying. And then when I woke up, I was at this moment of okay, I can't sit in the bathroom forever. Not only do I have a toddler, but I have a newborn.

And there was a reason I chose to go down this path. My options were, yes, I could go back to corporate life in a heartbeat. They would take me back. I left on good terms, but that wasn't what I wanted. So I had to go back to that core, the core of the why. And we hear that a lot, but how many of us really, really, really think about it on a regular basis? You know, a lot of moms.

start a business because they want freedom, they want flexibility, they want to be able to control their schedule. Well then we get into the day to day and everything starts to control us. So every once in a while you just have to pause and think about why am I doing this? And it can't be about the money. There is a thousand and one ways to make money now. And for those that are out there building a business because they wanted a better income coming in, that's great. But your why has to be more than that. So I think we have to think about burnout in the

big picture. Sometimes burnout can just be a day where, you know what, I didn't get a minute to myself. I didn't get to go for a walk. I am just tired right now and mentally can't think about another thing. That's not burnout, but that's just, you know, cracks, right? Showing a little bit of weariness in the journey of trying to continue to show up for everybody.

Ruthie (07:03)
Yeah. So how does recognizing those little cracks along the way and starting to okay, like I can't just push through them? How do you how do you make that switch from like, you know, because you could have laid on the bathroom fold floor and cried and then next week done this exact same thing after another tired day. So how do we make that switch so that the cracks stay cracks that we can repair rather than

A full crumble.

Jennifer Kok (07:32)
Well, first of all, I think we have to recognize it. And I think we also have to take off our superwoman cape. You know, women are designed to handle a lot. There is a reason we have babies and the males don't. And I love our male counterparts. We can't do it without them. But we are designed to multitask. We're designed to see everything that needs to go on, whether you're trying to work and you see the laundry pile. And so we have to figure out for ourselves, you know, where is it

that I don't have to do it all. And why

Ruthie (08:04)
Mm.

Jennifer Kok (08:05)
do I feel like I have to do it all? And in

Ruthie (08:07)
Mm.

Jennifer Kok (08:07)
my early days, you know, I left a really good career to start this business. So when I look back at that, I had a little bit of a I can do this. I got to prove to everybody that I can do this. I can't ask for help. And we have to let that go.

I do not know one person that has built anything significant on their own.

But for some reason we try to feel like asking for help is a weakness and it's not. And so I think not only in your business do you have to look at where to ask for help, whether it's time to bring in that bookkeeper or time to bring in that marketing person, and also at home. You know, you don't have to be the only one to carry your family schedule. But for some reason, women tend to do that. You know, there's a lot of tools out there, there's a lot of people that can help. And so I think it's recognizing the fact that it's okay.

to grow as a village. You know, they always say it takes a village. Well, it does. There is there's a reason that saying is out there. And so it's allowing ourselves to the permission to say, you know what? I can't cook dinner tonight. Can someone else do it?

Ruthie (09:12)
Yeah. I think, you know, as high achieving women, often we confuse the idea of you can do anything with you have to do everything. And you you cannot do everything, at least not very well or for very long, right?

Jennifer Kok (09:26)
Exactly. And my passion is helping women beat the odds. So right now in small business, one out of two do not make it five years. And then we're also seeing this trend where men male businesses are outperforming women businesses almost four times. And so my goal is: I built a business for 20 years, and my goal is to help.

my clients and other women be able to do that as well. Be able to walk away when they're ready to walk away, not because everything feels like it's on their shoulders. And in order for us to do that, like you said, we have to recognize that we're not meant to do everything.

Ruthie (10:03)
Mm-hmm. And I guarantee you those the men who are running those businesses and for Xing their their return on investment or revenue over the a similar female owner, they're not doing everything. They for sure for and especially at home, they're not doing everything.

Jennifer Kok (10:18)
And you know, I think also I I love that they're successful. They're you know, we can learn from them and and it's

Ruthie (10:23)
Yeah.

Jennifer Kok (10:23)
not like, you know, male versus woman, but we just lead differently. That's just who we are. And so we just

Ruthie (10:28)
Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Kok (10:28)
have to recognize that and figure out a system that works for us and make sure

Ruthie (10:32)
Right.

Jennifer Kok (10:32)
that we are supported by a system.

Ruthie (10:34)
Right. So speaking of systems, obviously in terms of the the marketing world, I lean on systems. I lean on does, you know, creating marketing systems that you that fit with your budget, that fit with your bandwidth, that fit with your life, because every marketing strategy works. Every single one, but every single one takes time, money, energy, and you don't have unlimited of those things.

And so one of the things that I know you talk a lot about with your clients is messaging before marketing. Talk to me a little bit about your perspective and why that matters so much.

Jennifer Kok (11:08)
So most of the clients I work with are female owned and they are in service-based industries. So these are creatives. They are your interior designers, your bakeries, your, you know, photographers. And they come to me usually about year two or three. Because what happens is what got you to that point is not going to keep you going forward. It's just the natural trajectory of building a business. There's no way you can avoid it. There are stages of building a business for a reason. And so when you first start, you have a heart.

You're helping everybody. You want to serve everybody. You're going to every person that invites you to coffee. You're going to every networking event out there. You're talking about your business at PTA meetings. That's just who you are. And that's part of it. And that's okay. But if you keep that up, you first of all are not going to be profitable. And I am all about the profit. Trust me. I've had many a moments where my revenue was good, but there was not any cash in the bank. And so what happens is we are just trying to once again

Do everything for everybody. And we can't. And that includes not only who you're serving as a who your ideal client is, but the messaging that you are putting out into the world. Because if you try to serve everybody, not only is that mentally draining, you have to sit there and think about, okay, what am I going to talk about today? Okay, well, I can talk about 101 things. That's a lot. And it's exhausting for you as a business owner and it's exhausting for your audience. So one of the things that I work with is figuring out.

not only where the profit leaks are happening. And when I say profit leaks links leaks, it's not just dollars. It's your time, your energy, your capacity. But

Ruthie (12:46)
Yeah.

Jennifer Kok (12:46)
then also, what are you talking about with your business? And I will tell you almost every time we're trying to serve everybody. So that's one of the first steps is who is your ideal client? And I know we hear this a lot. We hear niching, we hear find your audience, but how many of us are actually acting on it in our daily habits?

Ruthie (13:06)
And are okay saying these people over here are not my ideal client. And that's okay. I think we feel like a lot of times as women who are our servers, we want to include everybody because we care about people. And so it feels like if I narrow in, then I'm excluding somebody. But you have to because there's only so much of you to go around.

Jennifer Kok (13:29)
You have to. And the messaging is just crazy now. I mean, we live in this fast-paced digital world. And unless you are so specific and really take the time to talk to an ideal client and understand their pain points, nobody's going to catch on to what you're doing. You know, decision

Ruthie (13:44)
Yeah.

Jennifer Kok (13:45)
fatigue is real. And we talk a lot about that with my in the work that I do is how we're making decisions. And so for instance, I had a client come to me and she was a photographer and she was getting burned out.

Because her schedule was dictating her every day. So she was, you know, taking baby photos, you know, families on the weekends, seniors, and just everything. And she just couldn't do it anymore. And then her profit wasn't great. She was working really hard for a little income. So we really dug deep into what's going on behind the layers. You know, peel away the onions, see what's happening inside your business.

And what we found is she had a heart for interior design. She loved all that. So she took the leap of faith with my guidance and encouragement, and she became a real estate photographer. And I will tell you, she four times her revenue in one year.

Ruthie (14:35)
Yeah.

Jennifer Kok (14:35)
Because now all she talked about was, okay, what is it? What's good real estate photography versus average?

Ruthie (14:43)
Mm.

Jennifer Kok (14:44)
Now she could say no to a lot of those coffee dates and networking. She just networked where the realtors were.

Ruthie (14:50)
Yeah.

Jennifer Kok (14:50)
And so she was so specific and her messaging was so dialed in that it stopped the scroll. And then she was able to build really strong relationships with what I call power partners, people that referred her. And so not only did she boost her revenue, her profits w followed and her time, she saved a lot of time.

Ruthie (15:11)
Yeah. You know, it's interesting that conversation that you were saying about having coffee chats and networking events and going to all of these things. I always tell my clients when they're struggling to really narrow in on that who is that if you talk to everybody, nobody is listening. But if you talk to one person, other people are going to eavesdrop.

So in her situation, there were probably people that she had met who as soon as they learned that she's now niching into this was like, I know somebody I should introduce you to, right? Where when it was like I serve everybody, it's like, Okay, cool. I'll I'll keep you in mind, you know?

Jennifer Kok (15:46)
Exactly. I call it pass the face test. If you tell

Ruthie (15:49)
Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Kok (15:49)
somebody what you do and they get that kind of blank look, that means a person's face didn't come to their mind immediately. But if you're specific enough and say, I help real estate get their photos so they can sell a house quickly, we all know a realtor. So then all of a sudden a face is coming to

to mind. It's kind of like when you're parenting your kids and you're screaming at to come come and eat dinner, you know, this and nobody shows up. But I if you go down there and say, Hey, dinner's ready, it's on the table, all of a sudden they, you know, they stop what they're doing when you whisper, right? Isn't that funny how that works?

Ruthie (16:21)
Yes. You know, another thing that I was thinking about when you were talking about how in the early stage of business, we're we're trying to do all the things, we're post maybe we're posting every day, we're going to this event, we're going to that event, we're networking here, we're networking there. And that stage, it works in that moment, but it doesn't work in the next moment. And it made me think about the way you parent your toddler is not the same way you're gonna parent your teen.

And it doesn't mean that what you did in the toddler stage was wrong. It's just not right for this new stage. And your business is the exact same way.

Jennifer Kok (16:54)
Exactly. You're evolving as a business owner. Your clients are evolving in whatever you're serving or helping them with. And you just have to kind of evolve with it. You know, I think, but I always say we and you probably see this a lot too, where it's sometimes people pivot too soon. You know, they might create their marketing messaging, create their ideal client, they go try it for a few weeks and then they don't get anything. So then they're like, that didn't work. I better move on to something else.

And I'm gonna say, you know, be careful of that trap because I what I see is as business owners, we get bored because we've said the same thing over and over and over. So we feel like everybody's heard it over and over and over, but they haven't. So you have to also give it time. You can't just jump into one ideal client, one messaging, and then quickly change because people haven't caught up

Ruthie (17:39)
Yeah.

Jennifer Kok (17:40)
yet.

Ruthie (17:40)
Yeah. And that's such a tough thing because you do have to be patient. I always say that business is so much like gardening of like you plant the seeds, they're they're gonna sprout eventually if you water them, if you fertilize them, if you cultivate them, but you don't know exactly when. And we're not gonna go dig up the seeds just because they didn't sprout when we maybe wanted them to.

Jennifer Kok (18:02)
We do. And I see a lot of women, we get caught up in expectations because of what other people maybe have achieved or what social media is telling us they've achieved. And so to your analogy, we quit watering the garden. And that's when we start to doubt ourselves and we start to have that spiral in our minds about, well, is this for me? You know, should I keep going? Or is it time for me just to go back to work? Or maybe this isn't gonna work? You know, we start to think those things.

Ruthie (18:30)
Mm.

Jennifer Kok (18:30)
And they're

not true. We just haven't given ourselves enough time for the breakthrough.

Ruthie (18:34)
Yeah. So you work with a lot of women in that messy middle. And and like you said, you see this in your clients. And th those of us who are listening are like, yeah, I I have those thoughts too. Like I thought I was the only one. Like you're definitely not the only one. And that's why I love these raw and real, transparent conversations. But I know that you can also offer people a glimpse of what happens on the other side. So talk to me a little bit about towards the end of your business journey before you sold your business.

And what really then inspired you to move into coaching other female entrepreneurs?

Jennifer Kok (19:06)
So I owned my business for over 20 years and I weathered a lot of things, a lot of really highs, great months, you know, working a couple days a week, family vacations, all the things that a strong business can give you. But I also had a lot of a lot of lows. And one of them was the day that I bounced my employees' paychecks because once again I was focused on revenue, not profit. And that to me was a pivotal moment because I was avoiding a decision.

And avoiding a decision is a decision. I was avoiding the financials. I was avoiding the hard no's that come with managing that. And so once I learned how to do all that better and kind of journeyed through and owned a business for 20 years, it was time, I just knew it was time to sell. And I mentored my manager. She bought it from me. And it was a great transition. And so then I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do next, and the pandemic happened.

Well, part of my twenty year journey was weathering a recession. And when you are faced with these external threats, things that are completely out of your control. You know, a lot of us lately are talking about that. Tariffs, they're out of our control. Our economic climate, the political climate, all the noise, AI, you know, these are the things that business owners today are saying, I can't, you know, that's affecting me. You know, I keep hearing over and over and over, Well, I I better not invest in that because I don't know what's coming next. Meaning all these things that are

Tariffs and so forth. Well, yes, we can sit there, but how long are you going to sit there and wait for this external thing to go away? Because it's not going to go away. There'll just be something else that comes our way. So we have to take the ownership and move forward with our businesses. And so when the pandemic happened, I'm watching all these business owners just flounder. Rightfully so. It was scary. It was ridiculous. The information was changing by the second, right? So it was so hard to manage. And

I thought, you know what, I have a skill set that can help these folks because I weathered the recession. I weathered some cash flow crises. I just can meet you where you're at, hear you, and then just kind of give you one thing to focus on. You can't focus on a hundred. Let's just focus on one. So that was kind of my motivation. This is what I call my encore career, my give back moment. And I love it because I work with amazing business owners who have a passion. They're just kind of stuck.

You know the the old saying you can't read the label when you're inside the jar? That

Ruthie (21:33)
Yeah.

Jennifer Kok (21:33)
is so true for business owners. You guys are octopuses with eight arms juggling eight different things. Where I come in, I'm not emotionally attached, I get that nice 30,000 view, and I can really dig through and see what is leaking your profit and what is the one thing that we need to move forward on now. And then I help you stay focused, I help you stay positive, I help you not compare yourself to others.

You know, we have to guide through this process because change takes time and you're not gonna get rich quick overnight. And if anybody comes to you and says, Hey, I got that magic bullet, that marketing thing that's gonna just, you know, put you to the next level, run because it that's not that's not the way it works. No. And so yeah, my

Ruthie (22:12)
Yes. Yes. Not the way it works. No. Yeah. I'm so glad

you said that. Because when I talk to business owners and you know, I sit in kind of a marketing director type seat. And I always say, you know who's really good at marketing? Marketers. So if somebody is telling you their one marketing thing is the one thing that's gonna change your business, that's not true. It's a piece of the puzzle.

And we have to look at all the pieces together.

Jennifer Kok (22:44)
We do. And one of the things that I love about my coaching practice is I don't just look at your business, I look at the whole picture. What is it you want to build? How is this affecting your family? How can we get your family involved in a way that's going to support the whole the whole picture and also your health and wellness? So I bring in experts that talk about health and wellness and energy, and I bring in financial people that talk about that and money mindset and then just also.

You know, family life. I one of the most things that I am proud of is I raised three children while building a business for 20 years. And my children are now on the other side of it. They're my youngest is in college, you know, they're building their own families, they're starting their own businesses. And the things that they say to me and what they learned by watching me do what I did, you cannot teach around a dinner table.

So your business and your family are not siloed. They're not two separate things. It's not like you're leaving your job at five, you come home and your bit your family has a hundred percent of you. There are times when you're working at nine o'clock, but then there's times when you're with your family at 10 a.m. And so it's really important to bring all that together and bring that conversation together and set your goals that aren't just, I got to get my business to here. It's like, no, what why am I doing this? And where do I want this and how do I want this to impact my family?

Ruthie (24:03)
Yeah. Yeah. Because as much as you're here to serve your clients and make a difference in the world, as a mom, you're here to serve the family. And, you know, you're here to make a difference for them. And they're all so intertwined. I also think that, I mean, I think motherhood makes you a better problem solver. It makes you more creative. It makes you understand. I mean, truly the idea of mental load. And you know, we talk about the mental load of motherhood.

The mental load of marketing or the mental load of business ownership, it's just as heavy. So having that support to help you lighten it, to help you wade through those decisions, I'm sure is just it's invaluable.

Jennifer Kok (24:45)
It really is invaluable, but the nice part about it is my clients also get tangible results. On average, my clients are taking home an extra thousand to twelve thousand a month net profit. That's cash in the bank. So we are

Ruthie (24:55)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Kok (24:57)
really focused on that. I want to make sure you are getting paid what you want to get paid and that you're managing that money in a really smart way so that you can reinvest in the business, but also give back to your community, family, whatever it is you choose to do.

Ruthie (25:11)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, Jen, I think this was a really, really powerful conversation and we are so aligned on things we could probably talk for hours. But if somebody was gonna like finish listening to this today and take one step, one step forward in their path to get to where you are today or where you're leading your clients to, what's something that they could do?

Jennifer Kok (25:33)
I think you have to really think about what it is you want to build, not what somebody else wants you to build or what you know social media says you should build. And it's okay if it's not this huge business. There are a lot of good profitable businesses that are little. So start there and then ask yourself this week, what am I saying yes to that is not gonna serve where I want to go?

Ruthie (25:58)
Mm, huh.

Jennifer Kok (25:59)
Because we're all saying yes to things that are getting in.

the way of where we're trying to go.

Ruthie (26:05)
We should all over ourselves. I should be doing this, I should do this, I should do this, I should do this. Well,

Jennifer Kok (26:09)
Exactly.

Ruthie (26:10)
maybe you shouldn't.

Jennifer Kok (26:12)
Exactly. So

Ruthie (26:14)
Yeah.

Well, this was such a good conversation. For those listening, if you are interested in having more conversations like this, being part of these types of, you know, real conversations, I invite you to our next marketing mixer, which is a quarterly networking event we host at the Consistency Corner for Mom Founders. the link is in the show notes or head to the consistencycorner.com/slash mixer to join. I promise it's fun. I'm telling you, I know networking events sometimes can be like a pitch fest. It's not that. I was like made to do things like this.

And we have real, real conversations and talk a little bit about marketing strategy and brainstorm together. But if you are interested in connecting with Jennifer, where can people find you? Where do you hang out on?

Jennifer Kok (26:53)
I hang out on LinkedIn and I also hang out on Instagram, NextWave with Jen. I have a new book out. So if you go to my website, you can find my book, which shares these stories and the lessons that I learned in the 20 years. And then I also have a lot of free resources to help you just figure out what is that one thing that you need to focus on next. So Next Wave Business Coaching is the website. And then LinkedIn or say hi on Instagram.

Ruthie (27:19)
Yeah. Well we will link all of that in the show notes and thank you so much, Jen, for being here. I really appreciate it.

Jennifer Kok (27:24)
Thank you.